Should she have been tossed?

laxsavage · 03:15 AM

Not lacrosse related, but I saw this on Sportscenter and just couldn't believe what this young woman got away with:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=462...goryid=2378529

So what do you do when you have a team that gets this out of control
(assuming that you can't just call the game, of course)?

wolfenburg · 11-06-2009, 04:48 AM

Hey that is football...
Men grap to the balls so women pull hair.....

(or as Marc Twain said:
Football is a Gentalman sport played by brutes and rugby is a brutes sport played by Gentelman ...)

laxsavage · 06:27 AM

Really Wolfenburg!? You think that's ok? Whatever happened to sportsmanship, class, and self respect? I don't buy for one second that all that goes out the window because you're playing soccer.

Woodenstick · 11-06-2009, 06:44 AM

I thought that all of the fouls were by that one defender, not the rest of the team? I referee soccer, and the hair pull, punch in the back, punch to the face, and deliberate foul from the back should all have been red cards if seen by the official. Even for lacrosse, which at least allows bodychecking, that defender could have been ejected several times.

It seemed to me that the soccer center referee might have missed many of these fouls.

outlaw704 · 09:17 AM

This would be one of those games where I could almost understand a fan (a dad for instance) getting VERY upset with missed calls. The moves #15 made, including the karate chop to the neck are beyond dangerous, they border on assault.

I know it is impossible for an official to "see" everything, but in this example the cameraman picked up several unsafe examples in one game by one player.

Refs and Umpires, I salute you -- and I do not envy your having to deal with players like this. Or maybe I do...

LaxRef · 11-06-2009, 09:48 AM

I sure hope the NCAA takes some post-game action here. That's a beautiful thing about video.

It seemed like the officials could have caught some of this, but some seemed like it was intentional dirty play when the offender knew the officials weren't looking.

The ARs can call these kinds of fouls, right? I don't think it matters if the center sees them if the ARs do.

ShaneS63 · 11-06-2009, 10:16 AM

when a video makes national headlines like this theres no way it won't go under further review. I wouldn't be surprised if the players who committed those fouls are suspended for the rest of the season, and possibly further into their careers.

laxsavage · 11-06-2009, 10:18 AM

New Mexico's season is over with this loss, it was their conference tournament.

BeachRef · 11-06-2009, 10:38 AM

The last little trick shown on the video, the karate chop to the head, should have been caught since it was at the point of attack. I'm with LR on the other stuff, probably was taking place away from the ball.
This past season I had a defender spear an attackman in the back as his team was clearing the ball. He must have forgot about the trail official still behind him when he did it. His coach saw it, no objection when we tossed him.

Formerlaxdemon · 10:51 AM

Quote:

ELIZABETH
LAMBERT
Junior / 5-7 / 2L
defender
Lancaster, Calif.
(Paraclete HS)

What poor sportsmanship.

I wonder what punishment will be coming her way as a result of this atrocious conduct?

SebsLax40 · 11-06-2009, 12:14 PM

that was just sickening

Woodenstick · 11-06-2009, 01:40 PM

I would have thought that the BYU team would be complaining about this conduct behind the ball, and at least one official would be watching for it after a while. Even in a 2 referee lacrosse game, if people complain, you start watching behind your back. I would assume that this soccer referee team had at least four officials (including one at midfield and 1 AR behind the defense on each half of the field), which makes it difficult to understand how all of this could be missed.

Stubs · 11-06-2009, 02:26 PM

Maybe this was only part of the game. Prior to the first punch in the back, there is an elbow in the gut. Prior to the hair pull, there is a grab at the shorts and pull up into the crotch. Sure, these retaliations are uncalled for, but you should look at the whole game to render judgement on the one player. However, there is plenty here to discuss the game control with the officials.

DLax11z · 11-06-2009, 03:29 PM

I just filmed a HS soccer game today, it was boys tho, with similar missed officaiting going on, it was redicilous, it was also a hs quaterfinal game. The refs try to let the players control the game by not calling fouls, but that gives soccer players the feeling like we do as lacrosse players to foul hard and get away with it. So this occurs. Unlike the BYU New Mexico game, in the game i filmed, 3 yellows were handed out to the opposition, but reds should have been handed out too. There is nothing that could be gone post game really. The refs that called the BYU game need to be told to call a tigher game when it comes down to playoff time and keep it clean. So the best team wins

RDean · 03:48 PM

Here's the tie to lacrosse . . . . . #21 (Kassidy Shumway) on BYU womens soccer team is married to Drew Shumway on the BYU Mens lacrosse team

Lax Fan26 · 11-06-2009, 03:53 PM

I have done a lot of solo ref games in my time (too many due to not enough refs). Even when there is no apparent animous at the start of the game, I am always worried about what might go on as soon as I turn my back. I have even had a couple cheap shots occur during an alumni game (which are often solo reffed).

Back when lacrosse was just starting in MI and the skills were not prevalent, I could solo ref a HS JV game without a problem, as the ball was on the ground more than not. Now, I wouldn't do a JV game solo.

I don't envy those soccer refs chasing the play. At the HS level, the average soccer linesman typically would not be watching for cheap shots behind the play and the ref would have no hope of seeing it. That is a horrible feeling to be the only ref and not have seen the foul.

DLax11z · 11-06-2009, 04:01 PM

I just saw on sportscenter, The defensewomen who pulled the hair of the BYU attacker, was suspended indefineitly

laxfan25 · 11-06-2009, 04:38 PM

The first play shown - the forearm to the back - was a bit of retaliation after the BYU player gives her a left elbow to the solar plexus, so that I can let slide. The rest of the crap by Lambert was just total BS. After the hair pull (which somehow doesn't do the severity of it justice) I felt like taking her by the ponytail and doing a little bolo action around my head.
The good thing is this will be all over the internet - I hope her parents are proud.

laxzeeb · 11-06-2009, 05:41 PM

We have had discussions in this forum where there have been posts worrying about legal ramifications and I am often the lawyer indicating that legal liability is less of a concern in sports where roughness is expected and known as a risk. However, as far as I am concerned, the pull of the hair as it was done in my mind would justify a charge of criminal assault. Far beyond any concept of the game and rules. The other player would have to be the one to file charges and I suspect she won't, but the ramifications of such conduct need to be severe if only to serve as a deterrent.

Prof. M · 11-06-2009, 07:08 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4629837

laxsavage · 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubs

Maybe this was only part of the game. Prior to the first punch in the back, there is an elbow in the gut. Prior to the hair pull, there is a grab at the shorts and pull up into the crotch. Sure, these retaliations are uncalled for, but you should look at the whole game to render judgement on the one player. However, there is plenty here to discuss the game control with the officials.

That's a completely circular argument. What did she do that we didn't see to provoke the little elbow or the shorts pull (didn't see that one, just looked like jokeying for position to me)? Little things go on in sports, especially soccer, but no one else has reacted that way, so I'll say that I CAN render judgment on her. She's a piece of trash.

massref · 11-06-2009, 08:38 PM

Red card?? Tossed??? She should be in jail!! If any one of those happened on the street she'd be locked up. Where were the officials? the coaches? The coaches are as guilty as the player in this case with, what, five separate assaults.

cannons196 · 11-06-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLax11z

I just saw on sportscenter, The defensewomen who pulled the hair of the BYU attacker, was suspended indefineitly

It seems the head coach of the UNM soccer program initiated the suspension with the support of the school and the contrition of Elizabeth Lambert who is taking responsibility for her actions.

See http://www.golobos.com/sports/w-socc...110609aaa.html.

At least that's a positive step for the school and the sport.

I sure am glad I wasn't an official at this game. I do my best to try to take quick glances off the ball to catch this type of behavior during a lacrosse game. It's what makes a game get out of hand very quickly.

LaxRef · 11-06-2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannons196

I sure am glad I wasn't an official at this game. I do my best to try to take quick glances off the ball to catch this type of behavior during a lacrosse game. It's what makes a game get out of hand very quickly.

This is why I'm so thankful that we have 3 officials on the majority of our HS games here.

laxsavage · 11-06-2009, 10:44 PM

I'm still disappointed in UNM. Indefinite suspension? The season's over! She should be kicked off the team. My guess is that the suspension gets lifted once her senior season begins.

LaxRef · 11-06-2009, 10:50 PM

I'm sure ESPN would be all over that if it happened.

fatpiggy · 11-07-2009, 12:41 AM

I also am a USSF ref and saw this video too and was just about to post it when i came across this one...
Anyways I find this very very crazy, Anyways LaxRef above you posted that the AR should call this. An AR maybe would see this and would wave his flag in the air meaning a foul, but the Center Ref is focussing on the game there for not being able to see it so the AR would not wave his flag or would put it up but later have to put it down. The Center Ref also is the main ref so has the authority to wave off a flag. As someone else also stated there are four refs. 2 AR's 1 Center and 1 4th official. The 4th official does not really do so much in most games. In this game, not only should the girl get a red card, but some of the subs because as you can see in the background they clap when the other girl gets hit in the face. This is rediculous and this ref should be revoked of his reffing license too...

Sorry if this is long and confusing and pointless

massref · 11-07-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpiggy

I also am a USSF ref and saw this video too and was just about to post it when i came across this one...
Anyways I find this very very crazy, Anyways LaxRef above you posted that the AR should call this. An AR maybe would see this and would wave his flag in the air meaning a foul, but the Center Ref is focussing on the game there for not being able to see it so the AR would not wave his flag or would put it up but later have to put it down. The Center Ref also is the main ref so has the authority to wave off a flag. As someone else also stated there are four refs. 2 AR's 1 Center and 1 4th official. The 4th official does not really do so much in most games. In this game, not only should the girl get a red card, but some of the subs because as you can see in the background they clap when the other girl gets hit in the face. This is rediculous and this ref should be revoked of his reffing license too...

Sorry if this is long and confusing and pointless

But at least three of these actions were on the ball and nothing was called. That, unfortunately, reflects on all officials.

Laxref_36 · 11-08-2009, 04:40 PM

The Head Referee should have seen at least 4 of these fouls. The punch in the face should have been an automatic rejection. The tackle from behind buys you at least a discussion with the Head Referee and potentially a yellow card.

You are correct regarding Asistant Referees, they can make no calls on the field. The Assistant Referees should have had their respective flags waving, on the off the ball stuff, and notified the Referee at first opportunity. The hair pull required a red card ejection. The punch in the back and the white jerseys team elbow to the solar plexus might require one as well.

The tripping foul that the yellow card was the LEAST heinous of all that have occurred.

Suspensions should be mandated by the ruling bodies (NCAA, Conference authorities), and should the players school wish to add to those suspensions that should be fine.

The officials (and coachs) let that behavior go unpunished and they are complicit in the wrong doing that went on. The player and the school should be punished. Her coach did not remove her from the game and on some level wanted those fouls to occur.

These fouls border on the classless premise that: "Every thing is legal until the referee sees it."

wolfenburg · 11-09-2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laxsavage

Really Wolfenburg!? You think that's ok? Whatever happened to sportsmanship, class, and self respect? I don't buy for one second that all that goes out the window because you're playing soccer.

It is not ok but this is soccer. Sportsmanship and soccer are not really going well together. All what you see in this happens in every soccer game. (ok this was much over average but not over 2\sigma relevance).

so do i like this? NO
should the player be ejected? YES
Dose it happen? NO
Why? Because soccer players d not like video proofs and cheating on the ref. hase become part of the game. There was a huge discussion going on in Germany to introduce a 4th official (who has no power o the field).

laxzeeb · 11-09-2009, 07:56 AM

Wolfie's post really makes me feel good [not] about the explosive growth of soccer in the US and this incident makes you wonder if things are heading in the same direction. My avitar was really more about my preference for lacrosse as a sport but it seems to be taking on more meaning. . .

BlueJaysLaxFan · 11-09-2009, 09:14 AM

Kind of goes against the arguement of soccer being a minimal contact sport!

massref · 11-09-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laxref_36

The officials (and coachs) let that behavior go unpunished and they are complicit in the wrong doing that went on. The player and the school should be punished. Her coach did not remove her from the game and on some level wanted those fouls to occur.

Good Morning America covered this story this morning and no one from the school was on camera. The coach and the referee were not mentioned [as far as I recall-I was multi-tasking]. That was surprising to me. How does the coach get off free on this issue?

LaxRef · 11-09-2009, 01:03 PM

A differing viewpoint:

http://www.dailylobo.com/index.php/a...es#comment2878

laxsavage · 11-09-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaxRef

A differing viewpoint:

http://www.dailylobo.com/index.php/a...es#comment2878

If this is "not abnormal" (probably easier to just say 'normal,' but I'm sure the author wanted to be more wordy), then it would not have been a featured story on ESPN's Sportscenter and it would not be getting so much attention. This is a weak argument from a UNM homer who can't stand the (deservedly) negative pub that their school and state are getting over this issue.

laxfan25 · 11-09-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaxRef

A differing viewpoint:

http://www.dailylobo.com/index.php/a...es#comment2878

Reading the comments does restore my faith a bit in sportsmanship. They take him apart pretty well.

CardinalPuff · 11-11-2009, 11:26 PM

I thought it was hot.

(what? too soon?)

fatpiggy · 11-12-2009, 02:08 AM

"For every action that Lambert took, it‘s guaranteed that there was an equal action by BYU." Quoted from Jon Ramey
UNM alumnus
I find this to be the most rediculous thing ever mainly because he cannot be fully aware of this because he was not playing in this game... Its like saying someone hits me for no reason and saying that I did something to hit me... And to add to that this guy really needs to look over what he is saying. He thinks there should be no suspension for that and people should support her???? Are you kidding us? She punches, trips, pulls on her hair, says some harsh words if you see her mouth moving, and kicks; is that not a suspension, I mean really then what would be a suspension?

Lax-Umpire · 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laxfan25

Reading the comments does restore my faith a bit in sportsmanship. They take him apart pretty well.

This guys a joke, wonderful to see the comments that really express the feelings of most that have seen this.

Agree with massref where were the refs - got to figure they saw some of this, and any one would have got her tossed rather quicky from and field/court I work on. Followed by a call to the right authorities.

wolfenburg · Today, 05:43 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLWM...eature=related

So far about sportsmanship in socer....